128: Podcasting Through Our Healing Journeys with Phil Hadfield, host of The Chronic Comeback Podcast

00:00:00 Chazmith: Hi, welcome to Our Power Is Within Podcast. I'm your host Chazmith, and my mission for this podcast is to inspire you to take your power back and realize that you are the healer that you have been looking for all along. We are capable of healing in mind, body and soul.

00:00:26 Chazmith: Today's episode is brought to you by Primal Trust Academy and Community created by Dr. Kathleen King, a dear friend of mine who has been featured on this podcast three times already. Primal Trust is more than just a program that you are left to do all on your own. It's a whole community with many different avenues of support  Within the community, you will find form support moderated by coaches and other graduates of the Mentorship program. You'll have access to study groups and integration groups to help you navigate the Regulate Program, which is the foundational program that you would first begin, designed to help you find freedom from chronic illness and trauma by teaching, brain retraining, somatics, breath work and more. This program really focuses on combining both top down and bottom up modalities for a comprehensive approach. In addition to all the above, there is an ongoing calendar of daily live classes. To learn more, check out the links in the show notes and use the code OPIW for our Power Is Within to save 5% off your monthly membership costs, or sign up for a whole year and get two months free. 

00:01:29 Chazmith: Oh, and speaking of free, I actually have some really exciting news today. So courtesy of Dr. Kat, I am actually starting a two week contest where you have the chance to win four free months into the Primal Trust Academy and Community where you can join, Regulate, interact on the forums, participate in any of the live classes, and even join the study groups to jumpstart your healing. There are several ways to enter and win and I am going to allow unlimited entries for the next two weeks. The contest closes in two weeks exactly on April 4, and the winner will be announced the following week. And need I remind you, this is four free months. That's a $400 value. So, ways to enter. One, sign up on my website's homepage to my podcast email list if you have not done so already. Two, create a short story. It can be a video or just written words on Instagram telling me why you want to win, and tag me at Our Power Is Within. Three, share your favorite episodes on Facebook or Instagram and tag me at Our Power Is Within. And four, leave a five star rating and review on either Apple Podcast, Spotify or directly on my website, screenshot it, and send it my way. These are all the ways that you can help me grow and support my podcast. So it's a win-win for everybody. You get entered into a drawing and. All you have to do is help. I already support and grow my podcast. It would mean the world to me. So every time you do one of these things over the next two weeks, as a reminder, I will enter your name into the drawing for a chance to win.

Woohoo! 

00:03:27 Chazmith: All right, so I'm really excited to introduce our quote unquote guest today. This is a very unique episode. Rather than the traditional Q and A where I ask the questions and the guest answers, today is a collaboration episode with another podcast host who has a very similar style of podcast on the other side of the world. Phil Hadfield, the host of the Chronic Comeback. In today's episode, Phil and I really just shoot the shit. We ask each other questions and we answer each other's questions and we share all kinds of things. We share a brief synopsis of our healing journeys as an introduction to each other's audiences. We talk about where we are today, what's worked, what hasn't worked, how has this podcast and recording over 100 episodes either helped or hindered our progress in our personal healing journeys and so much more. 

00:04:27 Chazmith: I am really excited to introduce you all to Phil because his podcast is another wonderful resource in the chronic healing community to help you when you need to hear an inspiring testimonial story. And he, like myself, also explores many of the wonderful tools and modalities or ways to support healing. So please make sure that if you don't already, you click on his podcast link in my show notes and then click subscribe or Follow Today so that you can follow along. And after having this chat with Phil. I realized that I don't do much sharing of my full story. And in this episode, you might get a five minute brief synopsis. But if you want to hear more, let me know. 

00:05:15 Chazmith: I have had several people email me and ask me about my personal story and I want to be very upfront. It is so easy for me to be on this side of the equation. The one who is doing the interviewing, the one who is asking the questions. And I find it so incredibly challenging to be the one on the other side and be the one who's sharing, which is why I always feel such a high level of gratitude and admiration for every single person who's ever showed up on this podcast and had a willingness to be vulnerable and share their story. I think it is such a bold and courageous act and I admire it, I do. So here's the thing. I always say that this podcast isn't about me, so I've never really done much sharing of my own. But I also realized that this could be a really big growth point for me. So if it is something that you guys want to hear, let me know. And if the demand is there, I will be bold and share. Anyhow, let's get into it. I hope you enjoy.

00:06:24 Phil: Hey guys. So we have got a really special and interesting episode today. My name is Phil Hadfield and today I'm speaking to Chazmith Newton and over last, can't remember when it was now, but Chazmith reached out to me and said she noticed my podcast because she was doing the exact same thing and had been doing it and only launched three months before like I did. So we'd been living these kinds of parallel podcast lives on the other side of the world, doing interviewing people, recovery stories, chronic illness, really with the same goal and ethos. And so it was just new at that time. We needed to get on a call, we needed to share what we learned and we needed to just have a conversation. So there's no real structure to this other than, hello, how are you doing ?

00:07:15 Chazmith: Yay, it's going to be fun. I'm so excited to get to connect and just have this chat.

00:07:21 Phil: For sure. So if you could for my audience, if you could just maybe give us a brief introduction to your story and how you came to do the podcast.

00:07:30 Chazmith: Yeah, so I started out with various forms of muscular, skeletal pain many, many moons ago, discovered by Dr. John Sarno, had amazing results. Then fast forward a few years, I end up going through what a lot of people call Perfect Storm. And then I started getting all these other symptoms that were very much more debilitating and holding me back. Then I stumbled upon DNRS and I started that program and I was having a lot of success with it. I was very committed for a while and somewhere throughout my DNRS experience, I started realizing that there was this whole TMS mind body world and this whole brain retraining world. And I just had this insight one day that I wanted to bring them together, I wanted to bridge the gap, I wanted to bring them together, do these introductions, create a broader network. And I always dreamed of doing a podcast, but I had so much fear around thinking that I had a bad voice, that I never wanted to start it. 

00:08:31 Chazmith: And then I sat there with a friend one day and I just remember saying, "I got to do this, I'm going to do this. This is going to be a huge part of my journey," because it really created a space and an opportunity for me to step into, I don't know, I guess step out of old patterns and old behaviors and old limiting beliefs and open the door to try something else on. So that's kind of how I started the podcast. And do you want me to share a little bit also right now just about where I'm at today with my health journey, too?

00:09:05 Phil: Yeah, I think that's one thing they're also really keen to know. So yeah, just a little bit. That would be great.

00:09:13 Chazmith: Yeah. So it's been an interesting ride. I feel like I have a very similar journey to many people. And that started in the brain retraining community, which is that we make a lot of success and then we get really excited and then we go out into the world and we're so ready to live our life again. And then all of a sudden we have another perfect storm, another crash, and it's almost harder that time around and it can be really disheartening because you were so hopeful and you were feeling so good. And what I see happen over and over is when this happens, we start to go inward and say what did I do wrong? What did I not do good enough? Oh, I must have not done it enough, I must have not done a good enough job. And then we approach it with more perfection, with more, quite frankly, type A more of the habits and the behaviors that probably were part of what got us sick to begin with. 

00:10:05 Chazmith: And so that's kind of what happened to me. I was on a roll, I was feeling really good and then there was a series of really hard life events because that's life, it happens. And that really set my nervous system on just like a downward spiral. And I did what a lot of people do, which is kind of defaulted back to brand new training because that's what I knew. And I intermixed other things that I was learning through the podcast and it was good. But I do feel like I wasn't getting the results I really wanted because I was really good and then not so good and then really good and it was too much ebb and flow. And then something that was a really big turning point was COVID. I never would have thought I would have been a candidate for long COVID, especially knowing all the things I knew and having all the tools I had. But I did end up with a lot of really tough long COVID symptoms and this was just last fall.

00:10:55 Chazmith: And I think that was beautiful because that truly created this door for me to really start to ask more questions and to look into more options of solutions for me. And something like where I'm at today is a huge turning point because I am just in the last month having the most crazy epiphany and realization that I have been trying to do all my healing through the mind. And that's great, right? The top down. And even I thought I was doing bottom up stuff and I was brushing the surface. I was doing some somatic tracking exercises and little things, thinking I understood it all, but oh, my God. Until I recently encountered a wonderful human who has been super supportive and helpful at really teaching me about this deeper understanding of Somatic intelligence. And I'm just blown away. I feel in my gut, that feel in my body and every part of me that this might be a really integral piece of the puzzle. 

00:11:57 Chazmith: And it's special because it feels like I'm actually getting this opportunity to now create this relationship with this somatic intelligence within me and my body in a way I've never, ever done before, which is really cool. So I'm really grateful for that. And also, I want to say that there's an element of sadness, a sadness that I've gone so many years, done all this research, done 125 interviews, learned all these things, and yet didn't even really understand this until now.

00:12:30 Phil: Yeah, just because I'm really interested. What's the main thing that you hadn't realized? So if you explain that I didn't really understand it. Yeah. What's the main thing that's changed the main shift?

00:12:43 Chazmith: Yeah, it's getting into my body. And like I said, I've done somatic tracking, where I just track the sensations and learn to neutralize my experience of them, to let them be okay, to be indifferent. And I've watched them subside or dull over time through the tracking. But only recently, I'm learning to not only notice the symptom, the sensations, but then begin to just, in a gentle way, ask my body questions and begin to notice what feeling, the actual feeling that comes up in my body under the sensation. I always have so many interviews, and I've heard everyone talk about this, but I never felt like I could access it. Until recently, having somebody who was able to guide me in a way that really supported my body, feeling safe enough to be open to expressing itself in that new way, it's bizarre. 

00:13:44 Chazmith: Like yesterday, I'm sitting there, and we're talking about tension in my forehead, and we're describing how that sensation feels, and then all of a sudden, if there was a feeling or an emotion underneath that sensation, what would it be? And it's not that like, something inside me was like, "Oh, it's sadness. Oh, it's sadness." No. All of a sudden, my eyes were watering, and I literally felt sad in my forehead. Wow. I'm sorry that you feel sad, but thank you for sharing that with me. Let's just sit with that. Let's sit with what sadness feels like. And then it's, "Oh, well, why do you feel sad?" Because I feel so much. I think it was like pressure. I felt pressure, and then I felt sad because of the pressure, and then I got to because it's so hard. So you just keep peeling these layers back. And like I said, it's crazy that it's also new to me because I thought I was doing stuff like this, but I really wasn't getting to that depth. And I'm just realizing how powerful of a tool I think this will be for my body.

00:14:38 Phil: Yeah, it's interesting when you're talking about that. It's so foreign to me, being able to do that. And I think that's the side of some of the modalities, like healing modalities, I find it really difficult because I deal with. I'm coming to the table with a lot of, I guess, masculine energy. I feel like a lot of that is like really tapping into your feminine side, which I need to be better at doing. But whenever I've tried stuff like that and it's like, "Yeah, what's the feeling under there? COr can you tap into that?" I'm completely numb.

00:15:13 Chazmith: Same. I was, yeah.

00:15:16 Phil: So I find that really difficult. But also for me, what I've become a lot easier with because I hear that story for you and I think that used to maybe create a little bit of scarcity lack in me. So I'd be like, "Oh, why can't I do that? Why can't I do that?" Now, what I've realized is that there's just different paths to healing for other people and it doesn't have to be that one way. If I can't do that, that's just because it's not right for me. I can do in another way. And I found progression in different ways. And so, yeah, it's just really interesting listening to you talk about that. And that's amazing that you can tap into that. And also I wouldn't beat yourself up about I did that as well. It's just like, "Wow, I wish I'd known this years ago." I hadn't even heard the word brain retraining until I started doing this podcast and I've been dealing with this stuff for over a decade. So yeah, anyway, sorry, went kind of off track there.

00:16:14 Chazmith: No, it's perfect. It's perfect. And I'm glad you brought that up because it just shows like I'm the same, right? Like always, "Oh, why didn't I know about that scene?" Why didn't I, you know, I should have known. The thing is, the word somatic is thrown around so much in this community and there's so many different ideas of what it means and what it is. And you just always come back to trusting that everything is truly in divine perfect timing. That's what I try to come back to. So it's like I'm allowing space for the sadness to be there. But I also realize there's a bigger, true self part of me that's like everything happens in perfect timing. And maybe well, not maybe, obviously, because it's happening now. So this must be exactly when it was meant to happen and when I was ready for that next step. 

00:16:59 Chazmith: And I would say for you, even that, who knows, maybe in six months, two weeks, all of a sudden be able to tap into that soma in a different way because honestly, I still can't even do it alone. I can only get to it when somebody actually walks me through it. I'm not able yet to tap in on my own yet. It's something about a certain person being able to really hold that space and keep me coming back to it and keep me checking in versus if I'm on my own, my mind might start wandering or I might not feel a feeling and then I might judge myself rather than just being the witness.

00:17:36 Phil: Sure. Yeah. And I guess for those of you listening who are my audience. Chazmith--

00:17:41 Chazmith: Yeah, my audience.

00:17:45 Phil: I'll try and cut this very short because I've got my story online somewhere, so you can probably find it. But I started dealing with chronic issues, things like 2008, 2009, but really kind of intensely from 2014. Went through the whole kind of doctor, merry-go-round telling me I was fine, all my blood tests coming back telling me I was fine. And I felt the opposite of fine. Had every symptom under the sun. Ultimately ended up getting put in on antidepressants because they told me it was anxiety. Eventually took matters into my own hands. Went to Germany, got loads of testing done, and over the course of a number of years was diagnosed with Lyme disease, had parasites, various different viruses, and then more recently, I think it was in like 2020, I found out about mold. I didn't even know mold was a thing until 2020. You think about that, that's like twelve years after. I didn't even know mold was a thing. Well, I knew it was a thing, but I didn't know it was a thing that was going to screw me up so much. 

00:18:43 Phil: And then that sent me down a whole rabbit hole. And then the reason I started this podcast was I was on a retreat in Bali, actually, where I'm now just before the pandemic, and it was all about finding your life's purpose and living more in alignment with that purpose. And for me, I just started to feel like I needed to find more purpose in what I'd been going through. And for me, that would really try to help people in their journey. At that point, I realized that a lot of people do recover, but no one ever talks about it. It's always just all talk about the negative stuff. If you look at Instagram, all the big chronic illness accounts are all ones that dwell on the negativity, not the positivity. And so I really wanted to push that message and that's the reason why I started it. And I knew, and I didn't do it for this reason, but I knew that somehow I would get benefit from it. It's interesting, before we started recording, you said, is this going to be a thought about whether it was going to be triggering for me? And I also thought about that a lot. 

00:19:43 Phil: You're putting yourself out there. You're consistently speaking to people who have done what you want to do, and it's a reflection of what you're not. Why it's like I'm in lack, I'm not good enough. There's something different about me. And having that constant message, I was like, "Shit, this is going to be tough." And it was, and sometimes it still is. But what it's given me is so far beyond the negatives. I didn't even know brain retraining was a thing. I was still so focused on external things, helping me recover, rather than your podcast, Power Within, like myself taking responsibility and also just that mind-body connection, that common theme and I guess we'll go on to that like common themes. You mentioned having a lot of progression and then [inaudible] and stuff. I really didn't have any progression for just years and years and years. And it's only really in this last year that  I've harnessed a few different modalities and I've really started to make progress and I got myself out of an environment that was really difficult for me.

00:20:48 Phil: And yeah, so like yourself, I'm not where I want to be, but at the same time, I know I will get there. I have evidence. I have over 100 episodes. You have over 100 episodes. We have over 200 episodes telling us that it's not only possible, it's inevitable. We will recover. Yeah, we can just be a little bit more easy on ourselves in the meantime, we can enjoy ourselves a little bit more. We don't need to put so much pressure on ourselves. And yeah, that's kind of my introduction. But, yeah.

00:21:15 Chazmith: I love it. And I think what you said about feeling triggered, wondering if you would be triggered and that you were early on, and sometimes still are, I think that's really good to highlight because we're the ones, yes, conducting the interviews, but our listeners can feel that way, too. So anytime that I have an experience with a podcast that is triggering or puts me up into the challenge state, where I have an opportunity to grow, that's even though I'm doing the interview, I'm right alongside my listeners. So, for example, early on, there were times when I started bringing different teachers and coaches or even just different people's stories and I would hear how they did it and then I would go, "Oh, am I doing something wrong? Am I missing that?" And I would find myself wanting to do all the things, oh, maybe I need to try that, maybe I need to try that, maybe I need to try that. But it's too much and it's not all for us, right? 

00:22:09 Chazmith: So I would notice that, but then I would step back and come back in truth and stillness and just then realize what really feels right for me, what really feels resonant. And I'm just going to stick with that. And that's what I tell people who are listening. I'm bringing a lot to you and everything in that moment might be exciting, but it's not here because you're supposed to try it all. You're supposed to feel what really resonates for you and what you really feel like you're drawn into and then lean into that. So I think that they're right there with us in that regard.

00:22:41 Phil: I'm a big follower of the shiny object syndrome. I'm like, well into a program and then someone comes in and goes, but have you heard about faster EFT? And I'm like, 'Oh, my God, I'm going to have to look at that." And then just like all of these other things that are just going on and I'm like, "Oh, my God." That has been a slight negative about the podcast. I'm like that. Anyway, I think let's go. It'd be good to talk about the themes for you. We've got a unique well, actually, our audiences have a unique if they watched all of our episodes, they've got a unique perspective of how people recover. But I assume you and I are the only ones that have probably watched every single episode, listened to every episode. And for me, what's clear is that the path to healing is not straightforward, it just happens overnight. There has to be some kind of personal progression for someone to go through to get to that point. 

00:23:36 Phil: And what's interesting is I've found that there's quite a few stories where people like they almost recovered, but they hadn't learned their lesson of why they got into that position in the first place. They go back to living their own life and then, bam, they're back in the same spot. And it's like the universe's way of saying, no, you haven't learned your lesson yet. And that's why I tell myself the fact that I'm not fully recovered, I'm still not doing the things I need to do to be the person I need to be. And it's never easy. It's not normally overnight. Even those brain retraining stories where it's like a three day course, the lightning process, and they just suddenly could walk or could run. They'd also been through eight years of shit before that and through loads of false dawns. And it's not an easy message to hear, but it's also good to hear when you've been going through it for like six or seven years or however many years, it's good to know that it's not easy because it hasn't been easy for you. But it's good to know that the turning point could be round the corner and will be round the corner. I don't know what you feel about that as well.

00:24:34 Chazmith: I agree completely. Yeah, I think that's completely accurate and it's not linear. And that's a huge one that you just made at the end there just that never quitting because the turning point could just be around the corner. You just don't know. And the biggest theme that I see is that it is not one size fits all, which we've kind of already touched on. It is just not, I mean, if you are just absolutely miserable trying to force yourself to do certain modalities or tools every day, how are you possibly going to get well when all you're doing is being miserable in the process? Whether it has to be things that feel right for you or feel good. So...

00:25:08 Phil: Yeah, I feel like people learn this lesson quicker than I did, but for many many years. I was just really trying to find that magic pill that would get me better. That magic pill initially was probably a pill from a doctor. When I realized that wouldn't come, it was a supplement. When I realized that probably wouldn't work, it was some kind of crazy massage that might help, or like osteopathy or something like that. What I've noticed is there are some people who've recovered through stories where they didn't use a significant about around the mind body stuff, but maybe a handful, maybe not even that, but in general has always been a mind body element to it, to their recovery, whatever that is, whether it's been meditation or brain retraining. And have you found that there's always pretty much predominantly it's not just someone has just gone gluten free and suddenly they're fine.

00:25:58 Chazmith: Well, Dr. John Sarno used to not even separate the two words. He literally wrote it as one word, mindbody, because they're connected. I mean, there's so much evidence to support that now. It's funny because you've heard the stories. I've had done so many testimonials. We've all done the same thing. We try all the things outside of us, right? The perfect diet, the perfect exercise regime, the perfect this. I remember even before my perfect storm, because I still had so many struggles with health. My mom would say you're the sickest, healthy person I know. Why would I want to exercise? Why would I want to eat the diet that you eat? You say it's healthy, but you're still so sick. 

00:26:35 Phil: My mom sounded by a bit.

00:26:35 Chazmith: Really?

00:26:36 Phil: Sorry. That just sounded just like, "Wow. That sounds a [inaudible]."

00:26:39 Chazmith: Yeah. So I remember even feeling guilty about that. I work in the fitness community. I'm supposed to be a model of health and fitness, and I'm so sick and I'm getting sicker and I can't figure it out and I do all the things, but I think a lot of people, too. I see this happen, and I did this. I don't know if you had this experience you discover one thing is a trigger and you cut it out, and you might feel better for a while, but it doesn't last. Then all of a sudden it's another trigger. Then there's another trigger, and then there's another trigger, and then you cut out, cut it out, cut it out, cut it out. And all of a sudden your life is getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. And I think that's one of the beauties of approaching this through the mind body, the neuroplasticity world, is you see people being able to get their life bigger again.

00:27:21 Phil: What's interesting is recently, the last year, when I realized this was such, like, a big piece of the puzzle, I think I neglected, and I've talked about this on the podcast recently, which is why I've done this kind of, like, I guess, miniseries. I neglected the core things of what a human should be doing for themselves. To make them healthy. And I've always been a shit sleeper. Like I've never been able to sleep that well, not always. And I was still sleeping really badly. And yeah, I was doing brain retraining, and I'm still feeling like shit. Obviously, you're not going to feel good if you're sleeping really badly. And that was just like, one of the things I wasn't making any effort to do that, even though that's really important to me. And, yeah, like Dr. Kathleen, she's talking about finding joy in your day. And I was like well, that comes from me moving. And so I need to find a way to get that back in my life. And so it's difficult because you can also go completely the other way. You can be doing all this brain retraining, but if you're sleeping like crap, eating like crap and not moving, of course you're not going to feel good as well. So have you kind of ever tried to strike that balance? Like have you always been good on getting the right amount of sleep or the food and all of that kind of stuff?

00:28:30 Chazmith: Yeah. So I also have had issues lifelong since I was a child, with sleep. I don't have insomnia. I've never had a problem falling asleep. I have a problem with sleeping in a really tense way and having very severe night tears, which cause tension and stress. So I've had a lot of my symptoms throughout my life. These symptoms I actually wake up with from the night terrors. So that has always been a little bit of a factor. But, yeah, it's. So I used to be very rigid and very strict. So I find this is a very common theme in all healing and growth is we are over here in one side of the spectrum, and then we learn some stuff and we are on this healing journey, and we go way over there. And neither is really good. You got to find your way back somewhere in the middle. And so I went from super rigid, super strict, very disciplined, always, every day, like, had my routines, exercise, had a very strict diet and all this stuff. I had to unriggitify my life and I went way over here. 

00:29:34 Chazmith: But then I found myself in a lot of resistance to actually committing to a routine or a ritual of things fundamentally that were really powerful and good for me. And so I had to relearn to come back to this center where I realized and Kathleen talks about this, too, about structure being sexy and like, the right amount of structure and the right kind of structure. But fundamentally today it is very important for me to eat well, but it's also very important for me to eat flexibly. And it's more about my relationship with food rather than it is the food. But I think also everything you said is important. Add in grounding and sunlight. To me, the earth and everything that is super powerful and healing comes from Mother Earth. And so I find it really important to really lean into that stuff. 

00:30:20 Chazmith: And I know it's hard sometimes when you're ultra sick or bed bound, but for me, it's always been really important if it meant in whatever capacity I could. Taking myself outside and getting some form of natural light, fresh air, grounding, that's been something that's always really important. Taking time off of blue light and screen time, which is hard because when you're homebound or bed bound or really sick, sometimes your only access to community and connection is through... especially after 2020 Zoom and WhatsApp and being online. But I found myself in this weird tension where I wanted the connection, but I also desperately knew that my well being needed to walk away from this sometimes and get back connected to Mother Earth.

00:31:02 Phil: Yeah, the sunlight thing is something I hadn't really done until I started. I had him on the podcast, like the Sleep Coach. The constant conversation I'm having is striking that balance between doing what's right for me and my health and then also enjoying my life in general. I'll try to be really healthy. Like when I'm eating for myself, I'll try to eat organic. I'll try to eat all of that kind of stuff because I know it's nourishing and good for me. But when I'm out or when I'm with people, I'm drinking coffee again. I've got my coffee with me. I like coffee. I went two years without drinking coffee because I was like, it's terrible for my nervous system and it probably does a little bit, but also it makes you feel a little bit more normal. I enjoy it. I'm trying not to go too far. I'm enjoying my life at the same time. And for me, it's like that really interesting battle of trying to do what's right for you, but then also just letting go of trying to do everything so militantly and actually just trying to enjoy your life.

00:31:55 Chazmith: Yeah. Anything I've heard from you, I felt like a lot of parallels in our stories and our mindset. So that's another reason I knew I had to talk to you because I was like, "Oh, God, we're like doing the same kind of podcast and we have such similar parallels to things." But how you said, yeah, my coffee. This is a huge thing because we have all these crazy symptoms that are bizarre that we can't explain, and then we all of a sudden start noticing all these things triggering us and we become so fearful of all this stuff. I can go on and on about how magical brain retraining was for me. It was such a massive catalyst for me. I owe it to the world. But I just knew it wasn't the end of my journey. But it really helped me to learn to not be afraid of so many things again.

00:32:38 Chazmith: And I think that's the most important thing is the relationship you have with it. Like, you drink your coffee. Yes. Does coffee potentially increase your cortisol? A little. But if you're afraid of your coffee and you're drinking it in fear, it's going to have a massively different reaction than if you're just like, "Oh, my God, this is so amazing. I feel so grateful that I'm resilient and I'm strong and I can drink this and enjoy it and you savor it." It's fine. I know you love your coffee. I heard all about it on an episode.

00:33:06 Phil: I know people who just have a coffee when they feel like having a coffee or they'll have one in a day, and then I'm like, "Oh, no, I'm good." I'm like, "That's it for me." Whereas me, I could easily get to the point where I'm having five or six of them a day, so I've now cut myself at two, and I tried to do them in the morning, and in general, that's working for me. Okay. At the moment.

00:33:23 Chazmith: How about decaf?

00:33:24 Phil: No. No way. I'm not drinking decaf.

00:33:26 Chazmith: That's what I do.

00:33:28 Phil: I can't trick myself. I tried to do that years ago. But coffee is a whole different story.

00:33:33 Chazmith: Whoa, whoa, whoa. You think Bali coffee is good?

00:33:36 Phil: Yeah.

00:33:37 Chazmith: Oh, I could not get down with the coffee in Bali.

00:33:40 Phil: I'm sorry. I'm going to offend a lot of people now, but in America, your coffee is awful. It's so bad.

00:33:46 Chazmith: But what if my coffee is not from America? It's like Guatemala.

00:33:51 Phil: I can't believe how bad the coffee is in America. Like, you guys do so many good things about America, but your coffee is the reason why the coffee is good at hick. So Australia, basically, and for anyone who's listening, I'm not Australian, I'm from the UK, and so I don't have a bias. They do the most amazing coffee and they brought it over to Bali. So when were you in Bali? What kind of coffee did you have?

00:34:13 Chazmith: Balinese coffee?

00:34:14 Phil: No, not Balinese coffee.

00:34:18 Chazmith: So you know what I'm saying? The Bali Coffee.

00:34:21 Phil: Yeah. That does taste like shit.

00:34:24 Chazmith: Isn't there, like, monkey poop coffee?

00:34:26 Phil: It's cat poop. Yeah, all right. Sorry, forgot the topic. One thing I want to talk to you about, which for me is, like, the reason why I created this podcast, and I guess for a selfish reason, also would be a reason why I wanted to continue with the podcast is belief. And belief in your recovery. I found that when I've interviewed people who've just had this unwavering belief, some people, from the moment they got sick, they were just like, "This is something I'm going through. I know I'm going to get better. There's no doubt in my mind." And I found that those are the stories where they got better quicker. For me, to be completely honest with everyone, I'm really positive person in a lot of areas of my life, but around my own recovery. And around how bleak things were at times. I got to the point where I was like, I don't think I'm going to recover. This has been going on for too long. I haven't seen improvement. And yet this podcast and these recovery stories have really helped me cultivate that belief. 

00:35:24 Phil: I've talked about it recently. Not that it's possible, that it's inevitable, like it's going to happen. I don't need to rush for it to happen now. I can live my life and as long as I'm doing the right things, it will happen. And what I see in my audience when I look at comments on YouTube and comments on Instagram, it's so obvious those guys that have that belief because they're looking at things in a really positive way. They're always trying to find the positive message in what's being put out there. And then you get the other guys, they're really nice people but you can see they're just always really trying to look for like that won't work for me or that person's lying or that kind of thing. And I can tell they don't have that belief yet. And it's just so important that above all else, they work on that belief that they will recover. Because if you don't have that and you don't have it, at least to a certain extent, then you're going to be limited. What do you think on that whole side of believing? Because I'm assuming you must have struggled with a similar thing yourself. Well, I'm putting words in your mouth but maybe if you share your thoughts on that.

00:36:21 Chazmith: Yeah, I think belief is huge. It's interesting because I actually have interviewed some people who actually had massive results and changes through brain retraining that initially didn't really believe it, didn't really believe it. I didn't really know. But I was desperate and willing to try anything. But then I started seeing progress and then that started strengthening my belief and then I saw more progress and it built, right? And so I think that's huge. And I think something for me is consciously I've always believed it. I have had one symptom since I was very young, consistently since I was like 16, 17 years old and I always said, "I am going to figure this out. I will not die with the symptoms. I just won't. I refuse it. There's no way in hell I am going through my whole damn life and dying with this symptom. It will go away." Tidbit fun fact, it is gone. Never mind that I got all kinds of new ones, but that one that was over 20 something years is gone, which is so cool. 

00:37:19 Chazmith: But what I've learned and had to really challenge myself on is that for so long, I do all this research, interviewed all these people, read all these things and I believed consciously, I really consciously believed healing is possible. I really consciously believe that I have the power, that I am a self healer. I am still curious if I truly believe that all the way deep into the subconscious, into the deep, deep root of me. Because a lot of times we think we believe something, but then our life is a reflection of evidence that maybe there's some conflicting belief below the surface.

00:37:56 Phil: That's a great point and I totally agree. If I'm being completely honest. I don't 100% the core of me believe that it's inevitable, it's happening. I don't think anyone 100% unless you've got evidence that's right there in front of you. But I believe it enough to know that it will happen. And what you said before is a great point. I was always envious of people having improvement because it showed that their body could improve and recover even if they had a crash. Whereas I had this kind of waxing and waning of my symptoms but it would never be in response to anything. So I didn't really know what was causing it and I never saw improvement. I always asked that a little bit of improvement that would give help me cultivate that belief. And in the last year I've actually got that. And what that's done is just being this snowball effect then because my belief has grown so much and my ability to just let go of things has grown so much because I've made the most progression when I've actually not been so strict and not being so militant about things. And that's just really helped my belief grow. So I think you said there like I don't think you need to really believe it to 100% of everything because I don't think you ever really will until you actually get there.

00:39:11 Chazmith: Yeah, you kind of fake it till you make it.

00:39:13 Phil: Yeah, exactly. But also I think it's what I've trained myself to do is even at my darkest times. If I'm looking at a recovery story, if I'm looking at something, I will try to take the positive messages out there. And if my brain is saying, oh, don't doubt that, I really have a conversation with that site. And that's really had a big impact over time. And someone commented on a YouTube video the other day, and they might be listening to this, but I am kind of like talking to them a little bit. And it was always they were doubting the person's. Because a lot of people who come on I imagine the same with you. They've had a recovery story and then they turn into a practitioner because they want to help people. And that triggers a lot of people because people are thinking that people are out to get them. They're out to get their money. Because we've all spent so much money, right? And people think there's a lot of charlatans out there, people out there that are looking to fleece them. And this person just doubted their fidelity as a practitioner. And I just said, just ignore that. I didn't agree with them, but ignore that, don't worry about that. Focus on the fact that they've recovered and that's it. That's all you need to take from that. Don't even go into how they recovered because that might not work for you, but just focus on the fact that they did recover. Does that make sense?

00:40:23 Chazmith: Oh yeah, 100%. And that's part of my explanation. My podcast or my mission was to bring everyday people because I knew that would be a thing. If I only brought people who are now all in this other position. If everyone that's telling their story is like a coach or the practitioner or this or that, when we see and hear stories, but we have this person up here on a pedestal, we see them as different than us. Well that's when you said the people who are like, oh well they're special or I'm unique or I'm different, but if I just have everyday people sharing their story everyday Joe's, then we connect better. It's like, oh wow, they're in the same boat as I was. And you feel this more of a connection. And so that's kind of always been the premise of why I just wanted everyday people, because I think that is such a testament, and I think then it's undeniable that it makes it a lot harder for somebody who's listening to say, oh, but I'm different, or because they're not putting that person on a pedestal. That person's right there with them.

00:41:17 Phil: Yeah, I think the guys who have gone on and to be a coach and be a practitioner, I think that also proves that that's not something I want for my life is in like I don't want to be a coach and I don't think that will ever happen for me. For some people it's a neighbor. They were really horrible job working on something they hated. And yet this illness has allowed them to really give back to people. I know they charge for it, but they show they should. They should charge. If they are genuinely helping people recover, they should charge for it and people should pay for it. That's just what I believe. But also what amazing story for the person listening to it, their illness has caused them, they were on a path to something else in the corporate world or whatever and now they're working for themselves and helping people recover as well. That's kind of the story I really like to take from it is that not only will you come out of it like a better person, we can talk about that as well, but also it can give you so much more. And we talked about it before the podcast really, didn't we? I'm running my own business now. You're doing this podcast now full time because we brought what we've been through. Where would your life be now if you hadn't been through what you've been going through? Do you think about that?

00:42:29 Chazmith: Oh, absolutely. And it's going to be everybody? I don't think there's a person on this journey that's not being redirected. Actually, I'm curious, I want to ask you, you've mentioned several times that in the last year is really where you've started getting a lot of progress. What was the catalyst for that, do you think? If you had to kind of sum it up, is there one thing, was there a handful of things? What really was the thing that catapulted you into this completely new trend?

00:42:56 Phil: In terms of what for me, one was getting away from London. And not that London is bad at all. I think someone once said the environment you got sick in isn't going to be the environment you healing. And I remember hearing that I was really stuck in a rut in London. I've got great friends, I've also got my family in the UK and they're all amazing, but they're all in their own cycle doing what they're doing. And it was very easy for me to keep fitting into that and keep making the same mistakes and I just wasn't in a mentally a good place. But I love Bali, so I knew that I needed to get somewhere where it was sunshine and where I could just make a new start. So I think that was a reset for me. So I think that's one. 

00:43:36 Phil: And then the second thing was just like, for me, movement and exercise has been the biggest loss for me throughout this whole journey. And the biggest sadness to me as well, because I've lost a lot of other things, some good things that I've lost, like alcohol, big thing in the UK, I don't really drink anymore. That's a big side of my life I lost and I was really mourning that. And I know some people might listen to this who don't really drink and think that's ridiculous, but I mourned it a lot now. I don't. I'm like, that's a blessing. I don't drink every now and then, but I don't really drink. But exercise just a really, really difficult one for me to swallow. So I made the commitment when I came out here, I was like, "I'm going to find someone or I'm going to find a way where I can just really work with them as slowly as possible." They tell me exactly what to do and I want to get back to some form of exercise and I want to use that as evidence to me that I can improve and get better. 

00:44:28 Phil: And I was doing that alongside doing my brain retraining, but what ended up happening is that I kind of stopped the brain retraining and maybe I'll start again one day, but the exercises ended up being almost my brain retraining. It's like I'm training my nervous system to trust itself again and that it's safe and that I can work with my body and it's not my enemy. And it took me six or seven months to really start seeing any sort of improvement. And then once that's happened, it's just been a snowball effect and I still can't run. I've still got issues with that and I still have issues with fatigue and stuff, but I'm doing stuff in the gym that I haven't done in years in the kind of condition that I haven't been in in years. 

00:45:09 Phil: And the third thing, really letting go of that need to do it perfectly. I'm not affectionate in so many areas of my life that it would be good for me to be affectionate in, but messy as hell. I'll put a podcast up without even watching it or listening to it. I should probably be more infectious in those areas. But with my health it was like, "Oh my God, if I don't eat exactly how it is, if I don't go to sleep exactly that time, if I don't do brain retraining for exactly that amount, then I can't recover." And letting go of that to an extent has been really powerful. So yeah, the three things getting out of my environment, exercise, finding a way to get that back and seeing that improvement, really using that to brain retrain and then letting go of that need to be perfect and do it completely perfectly. So that was really long.

00:45:56 Chazmith: No, it's perfect. And you know what? In doing that also the exercise, which obviously you've made it clear that it's very important to you, it's something that brings you a great deal of joy. Because as our lives get smaller, all of a sudden we can't do joy, we can't do all the things that brought us joy. And so I can't even imagine how amazing it feels just as you get to do the exercise and progress and see yourself progress. And then having a coach, I think is so powerful for reasons like this, right? You got somebody in your corner helping you. Maybe if you didn't have them, you might try to do too much and then have a setback. I know my struggle with the exercise the past couple of years has been thinking I'm not doing much because I compare it to my CrossFitdays. And so I'm like, "Oh, I'm not doing much," but compared to an average person, I'm still doing a shit ton. And because I get tired or burnt out or fatigue or symptoms, then I judge or beat myself up because I should be able to do all this, it wasn't that much. Or then you start to build that cycle where you're now afraid more of the exercise because you just can't find your limits. So having that coach to be like, "Hey, we're only going to do this today and that's enough," and it's good to lift you up and help you with the compassion aspect and then having that constant joy and all the benefits of exercise that come along with it sounds like a really good recipe for success.

00:47:14 Phil: That safety point that you made, is that's why it's been so amazing for me because I would go back to the gym or try and do something, it would just be like me trying it. And I didn't trust myself. I didn't trust my nervous system. I know I didn't. Well, I know now I didn't. And yet with him, I remember a day I turned up and everything had gone wrong. I was just feeling so bad, and I was like, I've been doing this now four or five months at a time. What am I doing here? This isn't working. And I just said I feel so bad. I really just don't feel like I could do anything. I certainly can't do what you've set me to do today because we have a program. He's like, just don't worry about it, it's fine. But we're not going to not do anything. We're just going to readjust. We'll do this today, and we just did all of these completely other things. 

00:48:01 Phil: And although I felt horrific at that time and it was really bad, looking back at it, those kinds of things were like game changers for me because the answer is not just to withdraw and do nothing. It's just readjust, make sure you're doing it in a safe space and continue and keep progressing. And that's what I've done. And actually, when I made the biggest progression this year was because I was working in person with him, and I felt like if I was on my own, I would fuck it up. Sorry, I swear a lot on my podcast.

00:48:28 Chazmith: It's okay.

00:48:30 Phil: And, yeah, when I went back home, I was doing it on my own, and I initially went the other way, and I was like, "Oh, my God, I'm feeling bad." And then he told me a few things and was like, "No, you're doing the right thing. It's fine, it's fine." And then I saw evidence on my own, and I began to trust myself. And I think the minute I began to trust myself and my own nervous system again, that's when I made the biggest leaps, I would say.

00:48:51 Chazmith: Yeah, that's awesome. But you had somebody initially to help co-regulate with you and help create that space of safety, which is huge. I think that's super powerful.

00:49:01 Chazmith: Yeah. And how about you? So you talk about the somatic stuff. You also talked about the brain retraining stuff, and I think that's just so interesting to hear you say that. I do feel like some people take to brain retraining so well, almost. It sounds like I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, sounds like you get addicted to it because it's a good feeling, right? It's given you that relief, and so you take to it. Like, did you take to it straight away?

00:49:25 Chazmith: Oh, I resisted it the whole time. 

00:49:28 Phil: Okay. 

00:49:28 Chazmith: I did, but I resisted it the whole time. But I think what I really resisted was how rigid I was with it, even though it was after the time when I had kind of promised myself I'd be less rigid in my life. So that felt a little inauthentic, but it's undeniable the results that I was getting from it. And, yeah, I think it's a magical tool when used in the right way or for certain things. It's such a powerful tool for manifesting helping yourself to be able to step into something that maybe you're afraid of, that you don't know is possible yet, and help yourself create that. I recently talked to somebody else on the podcast and she explained this in a similar way, that when you feel a lot better and you kind of think you're good, and then all of a sudden something happens where you crash again. It's almost I don't know how the word I think she actually said it was kind of like she experienced a little bit of PTSD from it. I lost a little faith in it after that. I found myself in resistance a bit after that to do it again, because I felt a little angry. I went through a period where I wanted to blame it and say, it didn't work. I'm not in that period anymore. I got way past that period to the point where now I see it absolutely did so many profound things for me. 

00:50:42 Chazmith: But what I didn't do was, you mentioned this too, is I went back to old patterns. You can't do all this stuff to get well, but then go right back to the life that got you sick. You can't go default right back into those old personality traits or live life the same way. And I think also, having done just a really classic brain retraining program, I don't  know that I had the tools to really emerge back into life in a new way. And yeah, I think that was a little bit of it. So I think a big part for me was when I had that crash again, all the fear that came up around it.

00:51:21 Phil: Yeah.

00:51:21 Chazmith:

Because as we know that you're afraid it's going to create a vicious cycle.

00:51:25 Phil: Yeah, for sure. I don't know about you. I've said this on the podcast before, when I try and look at the gratitude I have around what I'm going through, because I think it's important to try and do that if you can. I'm grateful that it's happened to a point in my life where I'm open enough to look at all these different modalities, because at the end of it, I'll be so much healthier. I've talked about my mum twice now, but she's going through some stuff at the moment. A lot of issues with really horrific back pain and blah, blah, blah, blah. I've tried to get to look at John Sarno. She's not having any of it. It's just like, "No. I need more painkillers."

00:52:01 Chazmith: She's not ready.

00:52:02 Phil: No, and I know that's back pain, but if she was going through other stuff, they would not even remotely consider anything that's outside of the normal Western medical paradigm. And so I'm so grateful that I got this opportunity now to just further my knowledge. Now you're wearing those blue block glasses now. Would you be wearing those before? I got such a knowledge now that in my opinion, I feel like on the other side of this, I'm going to be so much healthier than your average person. Do you think that?

00:52:31 Chazmith: Yeah. And we're going to have big tool boxes because life is going to keep happening, right? People will die and we might have a career transition, a relationship that we care about might end, and we're going to have tools like this awesome toolbox and this wisdom, this innate wisdom and capacity to know what tools to pull out and lean into when we need that support.

00:52:52 Phil: Yeah, no, definitely.

00:52:54 Chazmith: I'm very grateful for the capacity that I have now already and just constant ability to learn and discern and yeah, I just feel really grateful for my openness into the world. It makes too much sense. I can't even imagine living life any other way.

00:53:10 Phil: I feel like we could speak for hours and hours and hours, but I think we probably ran over an hour now. So I don't know about you, and just so everyone knows, we have not talked about the structure of this podcast at all. So hopefully you guys got something from it. If not, I've definitely got something from it. So I hope you enjoyed it as well.

00:53:28 Chazmith: Yeah, I thought it was fun.

00:53:30 Phil: Yeah. For you, I guess. What would you tell someone right now who's going through it and really in the depths of it? What would be your message to them to believe in their own recovery? I think maybe if we could both give that message. I think that's quite a powerful thing.

00:53:47 Chazmith: Yeah. I ask this question sometimes to people, but honestly, this is the conclusion I'm drawing. We are self healers. I think that we do have an innate capacity to know things. I'm still learning how to tap into that inner knowing, but I know it's there. And I think that the more that we can pause, the more that we can be still, the more that we can trust and lean into it. I think that we can start to trust ourselves again and trust that inner guidance. And honestly, the biggest thing I think I've been learning through all this is even though we're self healers, we're not meant to do this alone. We're so not meant to do this alone. I know finances are tight for people. I deal with that myself. 

00:54:29 Chazmith: But I have noticed exponential success when I have support. I can't even express how valuable and powerful support is. And if support doesn't have to be in the form of a coach. It can be in the form of another friend who's going through this, too. And you guys can just be that external witness to help you see each other's blind spots and to have that person to lean into and somebody to co-regulate with. Because I just think community in some regard and connection is so important. And getting support, it's evidence. Like, just with you and your workouts, once you had that coach, it was a very powerful tool for you. So just for funsies, I want to actually ask you my final question.

00:55:08 Phil: Okay, go ahead.

00:55:09 Chazmith: All right. Little different, but--

00:55:12 Phil: I wasn't ready for this one. Go.

00:55:13 Chazmith: I wasn't ready for yours. If you were told that you were only allowed to share one message with the world for the rest of your life, what would that message be? And I want to preface it does not have to pertain to chronic illness or pain. Just one parting message for the world.

00:55:28 Phil: Oh, my goodness. One? I've got loads. Okay. I think it's just for me not to believe your body and yourself is so much more capable than you believe. It's so much more capable of what external things are telling you it's capable of and you are capable of or like you truly believe just to, I guess, give you an example of this that isn't health. Even though me and my business partner now have started this business throughout my whole life, I was pretty much told I wasn't an entrepreneur. I could never do that. The best I could ever hope for is earning a really good salary in the city, in an office. And I was pretty much stuck working in the UK in the cold and whatnot. And it was actually this illness that forced me to realize I was desperate. I needed to find a way out and started business with absolutely nothing like not knowing have a clue what we're doing. 

00:56:28 Phil: And we've ended up building it to a point where I can live in Bali. We're traveling the world, going to different conferences and stuff like that. And we're building it to a point and I never really talk about it, but we're building it to a point where hopefully in a couple of years, we'll be able to sell it for life changing money. And that's not me just telling you guys how great I am or anything like that. Actually just believing that you're capable of something far beyond what you believe right now and also what the people are telling you. And I think that really is also applicable to your health and to your exercise. 

00:57:00 Phil: A year ago, I couldn't type without my elbows, my joints being in a lot of pain. Now I'm in the gym, lifting weights that I haven't lifted in seven or eight years. I didn't believe that was possible, but I had to believe to an extent to start the journey. So, yeah, I kind of mixed in a few messages there and sorry, I'm just going to mix in one more. Just get started. Just make that first step. Just get started in whatever it is that you're dreaming of. Just get started. Sorry. That was her.

00:57:30 Chazmith: I love it. I love it. You're awesome. I'm so excited that I got to connect with you. It's so fun.

00:57:35 Phil: Me too. It's a great way to start your Friday, my Saturday. But to your audience. To my audience. Thank you so much for listening. I'm sure we'll find another way to collaborate in the future. Your glasses, are they true dark out of interest or where are they from?

00:57:49 Chazmith: Yes.

00:57:51 Phil: I've got those red bubbles. They're intense.

00:57:55 Chazmith: Do you? The ones that cover right here, too?

00:57:58 Phil: Yeah, they're intense.

00:57:59 Chazmith: They're hideous. They're so ugly. I have them, too.

00:58:02 Phil: I've tried to train myself watching TV with them because it's like--

00:58:05 Chazmith: You can't. 

00:58:06 Phil: More like... yeah.

00:58:07 Chazmith: It feels like the 1950s, right? No, I wear these if I'm watching a movie or just doing stuff, and then I try to transition into the red ones for the last couple of hours before bed, and if I'm reading a book and stuff like that, but I wouldn't be able to see you. And also, they're just really dorky looking. The red ones, they're so bad. I can get down with these, but the red ones?

00:58:30 Phil: You could feasibly go outside with those ones, and people are like, cool. The red ones, people are like, whoa, you got issues.

00:58:40 Chazmith: They're hilarious. I'm like, oh, I look so sexy in these.

00:58:46 Phil: Thanks so much for doing this. I hope people got value from it, and let's do it again soon.

00:58:52 Chazmith: Absolutely. 

00:58:55 Chazmith: All right, friends, that is it for today. Wasn't that so much fun? I'm not going to lie. Every time the table was turned and Phil asked me a question, I felt so incredibly nervous. But he is really cool. He's very fun to chat with, and I really loved getting to have this conversation and connecting with him and now getting to share it with you all today. As always, I hope that you found value or inspiration in today's episode. Remember to give Phil a follow on the gram and your favorite podcast platform. Remember to enter into the contest. I explained at the beginning ways that you could end. You will also find all that information in the show notes.

You have two weeks from today, ending on April 4, 2023. Please, until next time, make this week great.